How To Be Successful With “Inside” Sales

Hi guys.

Welcome back to the podcast.

So it's always great to do interviews with sales experts and people that know a lot of stuff about sales far better than I do on the, on the, on the podcast to share insights and their wisdom and their knowledge.

And I've got a fantastic lady all the way from northern New York, Lynn, Heidi, on the, on the on the podcast with me this week.

So welcome Lynn.

Thank you very much, James.

I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Yeah, we're going to talk all things sales and how to, to approach and engage and win business.

But for those that don't know you, this is your chance.

Give everyone a little bit of a background of your, your career, your history, your.

What got you to this place?

Now in early January, doing a podcast interview with me.

Well, actually my 30th sales anniversary will be the 8th of January.

So congratulations.

And I am an accidental salesperson.

I think many of us are.

But I would say the biggest thing that I would tell people is that you don't have to be outside sales to be successful in sales.

And we're going to talk about that a lot.

You know, there's, there's, there are definitely people who go outside and meet with their clients.

And I've always been inside.

So 30 years of inside sales.

It's really interesting and we will pick up on that actually in a short while because especially I think now Covid, especially more than ever before meant that.

Funny if I was working with a client of mine in, in the city in London and they were like, oh, we always had to have the sales people in the office and, and, and when Covid happened, they recruited four salespeople from all over the U.K. and funny enough, one of them, I saw a LinkedIn post last week.

It just, just, you know, recorded their fifth anniversary there which lives in Edinburgh.

Lives, you know, so it just shows you actually that you can, you can do sales from anywhere.

Right.

It's actually one of the best skills you can have to, to work from anywhere.

And I've always a big believe you are in the world.

If you can sell you, you can be in a great place to earn.

Anything whenever and you can, you can, you can find a job if you can sell hard.

Stop.

So talk to me.

You said you were accidental sales.

How did you get into sales?

What was your, you know, obviously people, a lot of people is an accident.

It happens or they find a job and then you know, they get into.

To think, oh, I can probably quite good at this.

Talk to us about your journey when you start.

And when you start to sales, you're on the 30th year anniversary of it now.

So can you remember back those days?

I can because I was, I was a back office person.

So I was the office manager of a little printing company back when that was a thing.

And I got into a conversation with someone who was like, oh, you know, you're so good with customers, you know, you really should be in sales.

And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

Slimy, icky.

And ended up moving from that into more of a customer service kind of role, like inbound, helping people.

And was very closely tied at that point, right.

To the sales team that was helping, you know, the customers that I was customer service for and realized they were making a lot of money.

And it wasn't that much different than what I was doing.

I mean there were certainly different pressures and different requirements from a margin and sales production perspective.

But I was seeing that good salespeople weren't swindling someone.

They were actually building a relationship that was long term with people based on solving problems and helping people out and.

Right.

The sale was the logical conclusion to how you were helping somebody.

I love that.

And it's, it's one of the things I talk to people a lot.

You know, sales is, is, you know, very similar minds and you know, work.

The way we operate sales is about solving problems or helping people achieve goals.

Right.

You know, I always say there's two things people, people only buy for two reasons.

They only buy because of a problem or a desire or a want.

You know, it's not a need.

I don't think people buy because they need something.

They don't need to go on holiday, they want to go on holiday or they're tired and they burn out and they want it.

They, they go.

But I think it's such a good point you mentioned around that service focused and be able to support people and help people.

And yet it's actually one of the things that a lot of salespeople I think get wrong, isn't it?

They lose track of actually providing value and helping someone achieve something.

It's all about, you know, the commission breath and what can I earn from this?

And that's where they go wrong.

In my opinion.

That about you, but.

And I think too from a listening perspective, what ends up happening is they are listening for the next sale instead of listening in a conversation.

And from my perspective, I'll I'll be on calls with salespeople and I'll hear five different opportunities because I'm just paying attention and listening to what's going on in the conversation rather than like honing in on that first thing that I, you know, is.

Is heard that could leave lead to a business opportunity.

And I think that is the big difference.

Right.

I recently listened to your what's different between an average salesperson and the elite professionals.

And I think that skill of listening to what's really going on is.

Is one of the things that I would tag on there.

I want to pick up on this actually, because obviously your expertise is in telesales.

So this is a real interesting thing because I think you're right, 100% right.

But one of the challenges that people say sometimes is that listening when you've got only on a phone is sometimes hard.

Although I think it can be done and I think it's, you know, I'm sure you'll share about that.

But just going back to sort of where so the company that you can you remember your first ever sort of sale when it.

Can you remember sort of that moment where you sort of like, I've done it.

I can now start to see myself, you know, being good at this.

So looking back, my first sale was actually when I was a senior in high school.

So my parents were both school teachers.

Okay.

And the Sunday before school started, David Bowie was playing and I really wanted to go to the concert and I absolutely had to sell my parents on why.

That was actually a good deal for them to let me go.

So looking back, I think we're all salespeople as children and we forget that.

100% Agree.

100% Agree.

I couldn't.

I always say it's a great point you mentioned.

I think, you know, kids are the best salespeople because they all say why, why, why?

And they prompt because it's the way it is.

And then you go, okay, well, you found the heat spot.

The heat spot, the hot point.

But so you see, you sort of, you know, sold on your parents.

I'm going to do.

And was it a good concert?

Was it worth.

Oh, it was amazing.

It was so worth.

It was so worth all of the effort.

So look, you then moved into it sales.

And I know you were sales trainer for a number of years.

I mean, did you always find sales quite easy for you?

Was it obviously, you know, because you come from that service background.

Was it a case that you were.

You were just, you know, the thought of helping people solve problems It's a great feeling, right.

When you help them resolve something that makes you feel better.

Is that sort of, sort of how you sort of built that momentum?

So, so it is.

And I'm also, because I am a lifelong learner, when I was offered the opportunity to move from customer service and into sales, I actually interviewed the top five people that were like the top president's club sold more than anybody else people at the company before.

I said yes because I wanted to understand like, okay, what's the difference between my job and theirs?

Yeah.

Because let's face it was still scary, right?

Like going from a predictable salary to commission structure.

And you know, what if it didn't work?

All of those scary things about changing professions, basically.

And I have to say that the, the biggest thing that was true of all of them was that they figured out for themselves like who was their target market.

Right.

So the company had a target market, but each of these people figured out who they were at selling to and ended up specializing not because the customer company pushed them that way, but because they figured it out and it was all different.

And that was the, really, that was the turning point for me to say yes was that I, I realized I could take the company's target market and who I connected with and create my own ideal customer profile and then target them.

And I didn't know that was a thing like as a non salesperson, I didn't realize you could do that and made a career out of it.

Right.

I think it's really interesting you mentioned one of my most popular videos on my YouTube channel is help.

I don't have a sales plan.

And the starting point, I always say about helping out of a sales plan is, is exactly what you just said.

Okay.

Where are, you know, whether you're doing this for a business or in you're in a sales role is where have you know, where have you had some success?

Right.

I always say success leaves clues.

Right.

So if you've had some success with, I don't know, it directors or you know, manufacturing directors or whatever it is or, or you know, retail, whatever it is, you know, those environments, then, then the chances are if you solve the problem for someone in that space, the chances are there's going to be other people similar to that.

They've got the same problem.

Right.

And it's not a bad place to start.

But yeah, most people go, oh, I've never thought of it like that.

It's like, well, and a lot of people carry on.

No, I, I, I was going to say the, the big thing, I think is that when people think of target markets and they're looking at demographics primarily, right.

Those statistical things like how big is the company, what, you know, all of that kind of stuff.

And I learned a really fancy word called psychographics, which is how people behave.

And I think if you look at how people behave that you do well with, you are going to crush it.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

And do you remember obviously that, you know, the early days when you did move into sales, I mean you didn't have any sales training when you sold your parents on David Bow tickets, but did you get any specific training or can you remember, was there any sort of someone, you know, come and saying, right, Lynn, this is how we do it and this is the script to use and the blueprint.

Or was it a case of here you go, Lynn, help yourself.

So yes, so the, the when I started Sandler selling system was huge in the US Great baseline of how to qualify and how to run a meeting from a generic perspective.

But primarily, you know, we're talking about, I'm an inside salesperson.

Although the organization I worked for, we're mostly inside salespeople.

That is really an outside sales focused strategy and technique.

So I early on had to learn how to translate outside technique to inside sales.

And.

But it was a great foundation.

Yeah, look, so we're going to pick up and talk about the inside stuff in a moment because I think it's the part of the conversation, it's also the part I call inside sales.

In my world, it's opening the door.

It's the job of that person to open the door or to get the foot in initially to open the me to book the meeting or to get the conversation started.

And it's the hardest part of sales.

Sales in many cases, I think, because it's the bit that a lot of people don't like doing as well because it involves a bit of rejection and a bit of, you know, a bit of build up your confidence to do it.

But before we get to that point on your sales journey, can you remember the most, you know, what was the period of your life when you were going through that journey where you were sort of like, this is the best part for me, this is the time.

Is there a period where you really just thought, yeah, this is, this is, this is why I did this?

That's a really good question.

I'm going to answer it in two parts.

Part one is the epic failure of becoming a manager.

Now when I say epic failure for Me.

So my team made goal.

I had 35 salespeople working for me at what I call the height of insanity.

I don't have children in real life.

Don't take this the wrong way, salespeople, but you guys are a lot like managing children sometimes.

And I think what I figured out then was, okay, the part of that job that I liked was the coaching and training, right?

The I.

The managing of people I did not like, but the.

The helping people get better at their craft was what I liked.

So part one is I learned that I loved that piece by doing stuff I didn't love.

Luckily worked for a gentleman who was like, okay, you're really good at that.

I want you to do that for the whole organization.

And changed my job, right?

But from a sales perspective, I think the moment when I realized that I felt completely in control of my income, right, I was no longer thinking about somebody else, deciding in retrospect that I had done a good job last year, so they were going to give me a bump in my salary for next year.

That moment, I mean, I really own it.

Like.

Like, I was probably three years into the sales job from, like, that transition from customer service over to sales in year three.

I was like, oh, my God, I just have to sell a little bit more and I can get more in my next paycheck than I got in this.

I would never take a salary job again after that.

Like, there's no way I would have.

It's funny, isn't it?

Because like you say, I mean, I talk to a lot of, you know, train a lot of sales people and speak to a lot of salespeople, as you.

And I always say, sales to me is one of the.

You know, if someone said to me, well, you know, where, you know, I wasn't earning what I wanted to, I would say to them, start at sales.

I would still be saying to people, go and develop sales skills.

And, you know, you know, you know, you know, there's so many videos, there's so many resources.

If you can learn to sell, not only, like, can you.

Can you get you tickets for concerts if you're watching this and you're young, if you're young, but it can build you the life that you want.

And I.

And I'm a fundamental believer that I actually think that we've.

We've.

It's a.

There's a lot of people that think sales is this.

Ooh.

It's like you say, it's a bit slimy and a bit.

Oh, and horrible.

But those people that learn to sell in the right way, that can.

Can just create the life of their dreams.

You really can.

You can earn what you want, you can, you have.

You can be in demand for your services.

It's all in your control as to what you do.

It's bizarre, isn't it, how, you know, people don't want to, you know, they thought, you know, if someone went to the school, you know, or their college and said, oh, I want to be in sales, you probably get someone in the.

In the department going, oh, no, don't do that.

And yet.

Yes.

And.

And I will say that at least here in the US There are now even some schools that actually have a sales program, like a degree in sales, which is.

It's like finally, like, start, you know, okay, marketing is great.

Believe me, I need marketing.

I need people who know how to do marketing.

But, like, sales is a skill and you can learn how to do it.

Yeah, agreed.

So let's talk through that journey of people, because obviously this is going to appeal to a lot of people in your specialty is in, you know, from an inside sales perspective, has been opening doors.

It's one of the areas where people get the most concerned, though, isn't it?

In, you know, when I always say to people, you know, I want you to pick up the phone and have a conversation with someone that you don't know.

Honestly, the look on their faces if I just cancel Christmas for them or whatever else, it's like, really, you're telling me what you want?

And yet, you know, so let's talk through the.

Why is it, do you think that people get so scared of this?

And we'll talk through and develop some ideas and thoughts that you've done in your book and your broad.

Your podcast and, sorry, in your blogs and in your content.

But why is it that, you know, people get so scared of this and is there one or two things, an issue, you can just say to them, this is the way to overcome that.

So I'm going to squash one theory.

So we now have four generations in the workforce, and there are some people who are like, well, you know, they don't.

They don't.

They.

Whoever.

Don't want to talk on the phone.

Okay, get over that.

Because whether it's boomers, Gen X, who, whoever, Z, millennials, whoever it is, people don't.

If people Think of something as rejecting them as a human.

They don't want to do it.

Yeah.

And, and, and that's regardless of whether it's someone dissing your Instagram pictures or someone hanging up on the phone.

Right.

Like, I, I don't.

None of us, if you take that stuff personally, like that feeling.

And I, I think that's the key.

Right.

They don't want to feel rejected.

That's why, whoever you are out there listening to this, if you think that that is a personal reflection on you as a human, you're not going to want to do it.

And maybe it's because I don't have feelings.

I, you know, maybe it's because somebody said to me, if you don't want your feelings hurt, don't bring them to work to me at one point, which, by the way, was the best snarky advice I think I've ever gotten.

I, I don't think of people hanging up on me or people saying no as rejecting me as a person.

They may be rejecting the idea of that conversation, but they don't know me.

It can't be about me.

It's so true.

And, and I always, when I do sales sessions, I talk about the hardest sales job I ever did.

And so there might be some people listening to the podcast.

I've never heard about this.

So I was Jehovah's Witness for six years and in.

When I was younger, so I was a little 10 years old till I was 16.

And I remember going rand on, on, you know, Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas.

And I remember knocking on the door of a, of a house and this lady, you know, looked at me as, you know, as I was 12 or 13 and I was trying to sell a copy of the Watch Town They Wake.

And, and she was.

And she looked to me as if to say, you know, you know, why are you here, young man?

And, and she bought because of me.

Not because of the fact that, but in the same way people are buying because she felt sympathy, not because she wanted magazines.

Right.

And it's always like you say, it's people.

They're not, they're not buying the.

Because they're not rejecting you because they don't like you.

It's not rejecting because they think Lynn, Heidi is a terrible person.

I don't want to speak to her at that moment in time.

You've just not given them something or shared something or done something that's made them feel, okay, I want to carry this conversation on or I feel this is appropriate.

And it's that natural human mechanism, isn't it, to defend ourselves?

We want, you know, we want to defend ourselves because we think that other people are going to come and take advantage of us.

Therefore, the natural mechanism is to say, oh no, I don't want to do that.

So.

Well, and especially.

Right.

Because we've already talked about the universal almost impression of what salespeople are.

Yeah.

So of course they have, you know, I talk about their, they have their Wonder Woman bracelets.

Right.

Trying to deflect you away.

And it's, it's because they think that you're trying to take advantage of that.

And so look, let's talk about, you know, obviously you're, you're an expert in helping people, you know, break down the doors through phone, but also through other medium, I'm sure, such as, you know, email and social and different, different forms.

You know, what are some of the tips if you're, if your people are listening to this and they're going, okay, well, I know, well, you know, there's a group of 30 people I want to try and talk to, Lynn and I, you know, I want to engage with this audience group because I found the ideal Persona for me, but I don't know where to start.

I don't know how to get on the front foot with them.

What would Lynn Heidi's the floor is yours.

What's your talk through the Lynn approach to trying to open up a door.

So part one, let's assume that those 30 people across different organizations have something similar.

Right.

So that would be the first thing, like figure out what the similarities between these people are.

Because I'm all about working less, which means I'm a huge fan of templates and call scripts and voicemails pre written for yourself.

But remember that they're templates.

Right.

So, okay, if we have 30 people, I'm probably going to tweak my messaging by what I find out about them individually, but what do I know about them as a group?

Yep.

Right.

So that's number one.

Number two, the chance of someone answering your call the first time you call is probably low, which doesn't mean you can't be ready for them to answer the phone because it'll happen.

Right.

But know that you need to have a strategy, have a plan.

Right.

I'm not going to give you the template necessarily, but what's the cadence like for your industry and for your target market?

How frequently do you need to be contacting them and know that different people prefer different methods.

Right.

So all right, find them on LinkedIn or wherever they professionally hang out.

Right.

I worked with a company that literally sells beds for cattle, for cows, for dairy, actually.

Dairy cattle.

So farmers, dairy farmers don't hang out on LinkedIn.

Yeah, right.

But there were places they did hang out.

So please make sure you understand not what social media tells you you need to do, but like, okay, your target market, where are they?

And that's where you should be looking for them.

So where do they hang out?

And kind of have a strategy for yourself for how you're going to contact them.

The thing about using the phone is it's super quick, man.

I can, you know, I can make 30 calls, assuming I get voicemail in an hour and a half because I know what I'm going to say, right.

I know the voicemail script that I'm going to use for myself so that I don't babble on and on and I can bang out those calls.

The other thing is, every voicemail you leave, please follow it up with an email.

And here's anecdotal evidence only.

I am not a good a B tester.

I'm too much of a salesperson and not enough of a scientist.

But anecdotally delay when you send the email.

So use Microsoft or Google's delayed delivery feature or your CRMs delayed delivery feature, whatever you're using, because most people today are going to see a transcript of your voicemail, whether you're leaving it on their cell phone, they're going to read it, or if you're sending it to them.

Right.

Their, their desk phone is probably not a phone, so they're probably getting a wav file in an email.

So delay delivery for half a day of your email, follow up so that it doesn't get all jumbled together.

That would be a big thing.

And, you know, keep trying.

Do not, don't give up.

If you know those 30 people are your target, your ideal, that could change your year.

Don't give up.

But make sure your message is all about them, not about you as well.

I want to come to that part in a moment.

But I love a couple of things you mentioned there, which I want to dig into, which is around sort of the, the cadence and the regularity because you're right.

I think a lot of salespeople, you know, people in, I speak to again will give up after three or four times and they'll, they'll talk to someone, they'll, they'll try and ring them.

I'll try to ring them twice and I'm like, okay, well how often did you, you know, how long did you leave it?

Oh, I left it over.

I rang them on for Monday, I rang them on Friday.

I'm like, well, they could have been in the middle of a preparation for an event.

They could have been in the middle of whatever going on in their world.

And then I sent them an email, I sent a connected LinkedIn request and they didn't reply.

Oh, MILF, you off the list.

And I'm like, what, you know, what's going on?

It's like, you know, I always say to people, you know, do you, if you did four sit ups, would you have a six pack?

And the answer is no.

Okay, that is the best, that is the best analogy.

I'm quoting you on that and using that.

But it's true.

There is that people give up and it's like, well, and yet I sort of say to them, well, what are you expecting?

What were you expecting from four outreaches then?

For them to sort of bow down and say, yes, take my money.

When do you want me?

Where do you want me to send it?

I'm like, this just isn't the way it works.

And yet I think it's probably because we've got into that culture of being now.

We're in a now culture, aren't we?

We're in a now culture where people want things immediately, they want their food immediately.

Door.

You know, all the, the food companies would deliver in minutes and you know, the shopping companies, everything's now and people want that.

And I guess that's sort of.

Do you think the, the sort of.

I call it the step, not the stability, but the consistency of salespeople has dropped or that is that desire to want to carry on doing things time and time again has changed in the last few years.

I, so I, I think that the myth of media is, is like if I have enough posts on LinkedIn that are valuable, they're going to find me.

If I have enough followers, they're going to find me, right, that there's no outreach required if you have something people want.

I think that's a huge issue sometimes with founders of like companies that have great products or services or ideas that they're like, well, this is revolutionary, everybody should want it, okay, but everybody doesn't know about it.

So you need to call them and have a conversation about the problems you help solve to figure out who, who would really benefit from this.

But I have to say, like looking back 30 years, there were, there's always people that don't Want to call.

I mean, again, in your, in your, in your podcast, you talk about how, you know, 80% of the people aren't doing a great job.

I talk about the Bell Curve manifesto, right.

Those middle 68%.

If we could just get all of them to do a little bit more, right.

Be a little more consistent, do a little bit more.

They're not going to be your one, you know, your top salespeople, but if we can move the whole Bell Curve up, we're in a great position.

So I would say that most people don't have a plan for a cadence that they're going to follow and they commit to.

Yeah.

And that, that's, that's the problem.

Yeah, I agree totally.

I think one of the biggest.

When I, you know, talking to me the same as you do lots of people, the biggest thing I get initially is once they get over the element of, you know, because I always say to people, if ship doesn't come in, you got to swim out to it.

Right?

Yeah.

You know, if you've got a target, if you're in service, you got a target.

A target is the target, right?

So if the target is, you know, if I've got.

I shared on LinkedIn a couple of days ago the target that we want for our business for this year.

You know, we want to, you know, you know, we want to.

And I'm like, not all of those leads are there right now.

I was talking to my team this morning where there's, there's eight customers we need to find over the course of the year.

And we were discussing this morning, morning.

Our outreach program to those, to those executives and the people that we know we're going to target and we're going to hit and don't be wrong.

And I said to them, I had a meeting this afternoon with someone that will probably be one of those eight.

But I was like, I've still got seven to go and find that if they, if they don't, if they're miraculously going to come to me, then I'm gonna be short.

So.

But I think a lot of the time it's because in my experience, the biggest thing people do is they don't know how to do it.

They don't know that they.

They go, well, I know I want to it, but I don't know how to do it.

And then it's like anything when you do it for the first time, you go, but, oh, I'm not very good at that.

On, you know, when I, you know, I'm over Christmas, I was baking and doing some cakes and mixer of stuff.

And the first time I made it, it was like, oh, that's not a good look.

Well, and then by the third and fourth time I did it, it was like, okay, this is.

This is.

This is more.

This is.

You know, I made a sticky toffee pudding, and it was like, actually, do you know what?

The first time I made it a couple of years ago wasn't great.

But you know what?

The one I made before Christmas was pretty darn good because I've done it four or five times, and I'd learned the mistakes, right?

And to say, right, well, and.

And I think that's the other.

That is the other thing, right?

That people will say to me, well, I tried that, and it didn't work.

Well, how many times did you try it?

Well, once, and it didn't work.

What.

When did that become a thing?

I, you know, like, okay, I. I'm an avid downhill skier.

I still take a lesson, right?

I've been skiing for longer than I care to admit, right?

And there's new techniques, there's new ways of doing things, right?

Like, technology has changed significantly since I started skiing in the 70s, right?

Just for the gear you wear.

Sales is the same way, right?

I mean, I started.

And we would wait for the mail run to see if you got a purchase order.

Like, people.

People don't understand the fear of the last day of the month and waiting for the mail, right?

So now we have all these different ways to reach out to people, which almost makes it harder.

Like when all we had was the phone, you had to call people.

Well, okay, now you're saying, well, I'll do this instead or I'll do that instead.

This is so true.

This is so true.

And I think you're right.

I mean, I always say to people, scotty Scheffler, I'm a big golfer.

For me, I mean, you're not skiing, but, you know, Scottish effort is the best golfer in the world.

He has a coach, right?

He's the number one golfer in the world, and he has a coach, a person that helps them get better.

It's like, you know, the best get better.

But just so if you're so people are listening to this and go, okay, Lynn, well, okay, you've given me some advice on who to, you know, to target and what you identify and, you know, and to try and engage them multiple times.

You mentioned at the start is also about being relevant to them and being interesting to them.

Is there an approach that you Use that, you know, when you teach people and, and do your training that you say to people, look, you know, there's a, there's a formula or an approach that works for you to try and open up that door initially because that person, when you are speaking to them the first time, don't know you and they don't know who you are and what you're about.

Is there a method that you use that, you know, obviously I've got a number that I've used as well, but that be, you know, be interesting to get you to share some of the stuff that works for you.

So let's, let's start with the.

How do you even know what they care about?

Right?

So take everything your company knows about the product that you're selling and realize that even if you have a fabulous marketing department, at best you're going to get features, advantages and potential benefits, right?

So features are just the things that are true about the product or service.

The advantages are why your company thinks it's good.

The potential benefits are how it might help somebody else.

But the only person that gets to determine value are the people buying.

So my number one first suggestion is please interview your customers and find out why they buy from you.

Love that.

And then use everything you learn in your messaging.

I will truly say, hey, James, I work with.

Insert how somebody else is like you, right?

Industry, job title, whatever the commonality.

And they've found, say what they tell you, don't edit it, don't make it polished.

Literally use the customer's words and how they describe why they work with you.

That gets me into more conversations than anything else.

It's so true.

And actually I do a lot of calling myself and for my business and I was talking to someone before Christmas and I tend to work with technical IT sort of software businesses where my background was.

And I tend to.

And I did the same thing and I called someone up and I said, look, I appreciate you.

The last thing you want to speak to is someone that you don't know.

But I'm talking to other founders of growing ambitious software companies like you and they're frustrated that big deals don't happen without them being involved.

You're going to tell me you fixed this though, haven't you?

And the, and the guy was like, well, who are you again?

No, I haven't fixed it.

I do get frustrated.

I was like, okay, can we just explore you appreciate you busy, but can we explore this a bit more and what's been happening?

And tell me a bit more about the team.

And then I was into a conversation around asking questions.

And yeah, in the end it booked up a meeting which was to have a conversation with that person which may or may not go somewhere, I don't know.

But it was.

But the reality was, because I just talked to him about stuff that frustrated the same person in the same space that had done what they were doing.

And I was like, yeah, these.

And sometimes you get people that say, no, I'm good with that.

And it's like, great, fantastic.

Just out of interest, how are you doing it?

How are you?

Right.

I, I want to use your success in conversations I have with other people.

And I will tell you many times, that is what, like all of a sudden now you're talking about.

They get to talk about how well, well they're doing and they're like, oh, well.

And if you're paying attention to the da, da, da, da, da part number one, you can use that in your next prospecting call.

And number two, you may find there is a little something that's still missing.

Almost always you're going to find that.

There's a chink in the armor somewhere.

There, isn't there?

Right.

I don't live in my perfect world.

I don't know anybody who does.

So there's always something that we can do together.

I agree.

And I think to me, the element around being should get your view.

I always think about, you know, prospecting or engaging with people is just be curious, right?

Just be interested in someone else.

Just be intrigued by someone else in their situation.

And even if their first reaction is no, we're good, we're covered, we've got a provider or whatever.

I, I teach my, you know, so I've got a team of people in South Africa and I teach them just be curious to say, hey, look, sounds great, I know you've got a provider, but just have interest actually, who are you using and what you love about the most, hey, we want to get better.

What do you love about the most?

And they might say, and it depends, you're just about listening to the reaction.

But it's just having that curious moment, that idea, isn't it?

Just be interested in someone and trying to prompt and pro your doors open when you least expect it.

And I, and I will absolutely say that curiosity is the key.

Right.

Like we talked at the beginning about listening, being.

But if you're listening with curiosity, that's.

I think that's one of the biggest skills a salesperson needs.

And I'm going to jump in with a Little bit of a tangent there because you mentioned people will tell you that.

Oh, well, it's hard to listen over the phone.

Okay.

To anyone out there, whoever talks to a teenager on the telephone.

If you are listening, who can hear their eye roll.

Yeah.

Right.

So I believe that if you are a good listener, you can hear things like air quotes, you can hear people leaning back or leaning forward because purely the physiology, right.

Like how everything works from a windpipe to lungs to vocal cords shifts.

If you're paying attention, you can hear a lot more than you think you can.

Just to follow up on that, because that's really interesting.

I totally agree with you.

You can hear disdain and you can hear, you know, you know, whatever in people's voice like you say, or, you know, I talk about it being emotional.

Emotional sales intelligence and being that self awareness to go.

I think they're just tuned out here or they're tuned in, you know, any particular one or two tips that you've, you know, when you say you can listen out to when people have leaned back or is there anything that you can just give someone that to, to look out for or something that, you know, just a tip that they can use in their next calls or their next conversations that, you know, that you've.

You've used is if you are having a conversation in your own head, you are not actually paying attention.

So if you're thinking of your next question, one of the reasons I love scripts is, right, Like, I don't want to ever be worried about what I'm going to say next because then I'm not listening to you now.

That means that I need to listen to you and respond appropriately as well, right?

So I always have what I like to call question strings, like beginnings of questions with dot, dot, dot or blanks in there where I can take what James is telling me in the conversation and using it as part of my next question to not only to show that I'm listening, but to make sure the conversation engineering is worthwhile.

So, number one, try to stop having internal dialogue when you're talking to another person.

The other key, I think from a listening perspective is know how distracted you are, right?

You and I setting up this podcast.

One of the things that you said to me, right, Please make sure everyone in your office knows that you're going to be on a podcast.

Please, you know, turn off all your other applications.

Make right all of the things that you know could possibly distract you from paying attention.

Get rid of them.

And my silly one that I tell people is that I had someone else turn off that little ghosting.

You got an email that Outlook does in the bottom right hand corner because I'm sorry, I'm gonna look, I, you know, I.

Right.

I can't stop myself.

So the person who helped me said, well, I can teach you how to do this.

I'm like, no, I need to not know how to turn it back on.

Right.

So turn off the stuff that is going to distract you from the conversation you're having.

It's so interesting actually.

And I came from a meeting this afternoon with a potential client and he had his phone on the table and in fairness, he was really committed to the conversation.

It was great.

And I could see that there were things buzzing, notifications and whatever else.

And he turned the phone over and I was like.

And I said, I said if you.

And I was like, if you need to hand.

He said, no, no.

They said, this is important.

We've been booked this in for ages.

And you know, I know we need to do this.

And it was exactly.

And I thought fair play to him.

He turned it.

But it's exactly that, isn't it?

It's turning this, turning the phone on silent mode or not on airplane mode or, or whatever else to be able to just give that person your sole focus for that period of time.

And let's face it, other than meetings, right, Like a booked meeting, how long is a sales conversation?

Seven to ten minutes.

Yeah.

I will say that just like four sit ups is not going to give you a six pack.

If you are someone who has bought into that myth of multitasking where there's lots of things going on, attend, your attention span is shorter.

Yeah.

Not because as humans we are not capable, but it is like a muscle attention span needs to be practiced.

So.

Okay, you know there's programs about couch to 5K.

Right.

Like, but it's a program.

So start going from zero attention span to three minutes.

It's a really good point you make actually.

And look, we all know our own.

I know my own failings and my wife will tell you that, you know, that sometimes I'm too much attached to this thing and whatever else.

And you're right.

Sometimes being a bit disciplined, isn't it?

Those little disciplines to just sort of like you said, if someone's listening to this and thinking, oh, I struggle to turn off those, you know, notifications or turn off those Items.

Give yourself 10.

It's one of the reasons why, you know, I talked to my team, one of my team members about meditation.

I think meditation is A great thing because of the fact that I don't have my phone on or looking at my phone for those 10 minutes or 15, 20 minutes, I'm meditating, I'm not looking at notifications.

And when you then come out at the end of it and go, all right, nothing really happened for that 25 minutes, the world didn't end right there.

Wasn't this, you know, something major going on that, you know, my life was in danger?

And you go, all right, I could do that again.

But it's having that, that discipline to do that regularly that a lot of some of the stuff we're talking about, pretty basic things, but a lot of just sales and business people just don't have that desire or discipline to do it that way, do they?

And, and I will tell you, I still, right, 30 years in, I have an hour a day for outbound cold prospecting.

How I define that is different depending on maybe the day or, you know, what's going on in my business.

But, you know, and how I define cold is probably different than some other people, right?

It's cold prospecting to me.

If I've never had a meet for.

If I've never had a real first meeting with you, I may have talked to you, but if I've never gotten past the talking to you and getting a meeting, that's still cold prospecting.

Right?

We have.

You have not made a commitment to me to even talk about something.

Love that and the daily discipline of the hour a day.

I couldn't agree more.

Time blocking is something we put in our teams and we encourage people to have that time of dedicated time focused on doing.

And it is amazing what you can do within.

You know, Bill Gates said, isn't it?

People underestimate what they can do in, overestimate what they can do in a year and underestimate that they can do in 10.

And people underestimate or overestimate what they can do, you know, in, in a day, but underestimate what they can do in an hour.

And actually, I think a lot of time, if you can say, right, for an hour, like you said, I'm going to just focus on making calls to this group of audience I've talked to.

And I know what I'm going to say and I know the problems that they've got and I'm just going to be curious about them.

You can make 25, 30 dials at least.

And, you know, we, we have incentives of our team where we tell them to, you know, we're looking for 30 no's.

Okay, we're looking for 30 no.

So don't leave your chair until you get 30 no's.

And sometimes they'll get a call that someone you know turns into a potential and they're getting a bit gutted because they miss out on a no.

But I'm like, it's that whole point I've been able to just be disciplined.

And I say to them, well, if you've done 30, that's in an hour.

And like you say an hour and a half, just do.

If you do three, not three of those time blocks a day, you've hit 90 calls a day.

If you do that consistently for a week and then a month, you're going to see some traction coming through in time.

Right.

And, and I would say the other piece of that puzzle for, for me is again back to know your attention span.

So if you don't believe you can do that for an hour and a half.

Hi, my name's Lynn.

There's a reason it's an hour.

Right.

So for me, I will do better with four one hour blocks spread out through the day than I would do with two hour.

Like I will.

Yeah.

How about those three hour blocks rather than two one and a half.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because you know your own way of operating the way you are.

Yeah.

At the end of, at the end of that hour, I'm exhausted, I want to do something else and then I can do it again.

Love it.

So kind of time to take.

So we could talk forever about this stuff, but you're a busy lady and you've got lots to do.

But do you want to talk to you about.

Let's cover about objections as well because one of the other challenges that people get, obviously when they're making those first calls or those initial calls, is the common objections you know, that people will get, such as, I'm really busy right now or you know, you know, we've already got a supplier or you know, I don't.

I'm all set.

I'm all set.

I'm not interested.

Just to watch what's your, you know, give people a listen to some of your advice on how to, to handle some of those.

So here's my not patent pending formula.

There are two different versions of this.

We've been talking a lot about prospecting, so I'm going to keep it to the prospecting one.

What I want you to do is acknowledge you've heard them and ask them a question and prep for the ones you hear all the time.

Okay.

If, if you Hear.

You know, I think that most salespeople, there are three to five objections that they hear over and over and over again.

Why are we not prepping for those?

Yeah, why do you look at what we call a deer in a headlights in the U.S. right?

Like the.

Why are you startled when you hear, I already have a vendor?

So most of my sales career is in IT hardware.

Right.

So I used to think in my head, and I'm pretty snarky as a person.

And you can't use the snark in a prospecting call.

For the record, not at least I never could successfully.

But they would answer the phone and say, no, we already have a vendor.

Well, they answered a phone and I did not sell it to them.

Obviously, they already have a vendor.

Like, unless you were selling something completely new.

Of course they do.

You should always be prepared for, oh, we already have somebody that does that for us.

Or, oh, we.

Yes, yes, they do.

And I would always say the same thing.

Right.

I am not surprised that you're already working with somebody.

What's missing in the relationship that you wish somebody else would do for you?

Well, I love that.

And I have a method that I use called layer, which is listen.

So much of what we talk about is very similar as you listen, acknowledge, identify, respond.

And I always like, you know, say and.

And it's sometimes.

And these are injections later in the sales cycle.

But all the time it's like you say, it's that element of, you know, I'm going into a meeting.

I knew you would be.

I knew you're a busy person.

That's why I called you.

Right.

I knew you're busy.

But out of interest, how are you handling this issue or what are you doing about such and such, or other people I'm talking to have got this problem.

Tell me that you fixed that with a bit.

I love that.

I love that.

Like, the reason I called is because other people I've been talking about have this problem.

Tell me how you fix that.

Right.

That is not.

That is an inquisitive, curious question.

That is not painting them into a corner.

Even if they end up saying, oh, we haven't fixed it, or, hey, that's not a problem that we've run into.

Either way, they're not in a corner fighting to get out.

One of the other things, and this is, I don't know about you, but one of the other things that I try and train my teams on, but one of the things that I think people struggle with a little bit is thinking on Their feet or adaptability as I call it.

So you know, that ability to, to handle a situation when a call, you know, something comes in.

And like you say, I was thinking, people have the three Fs, the fight, the flight, the, the, the freeze or the, or the fight.

And I always try and say, you know, you've got to be able to prepare for it and to know what to do.

But you know, that ability to adapt and to, to handle a scenario.

So I was again, I talked to my team about the arsenalometer.

So we always talk about.

So how much of an this talk to them.

Right.

And the other 100% end where they're a real asshole and they don't want to have a conversation with you or they middle of the ground in there.

And actually just a bit of humor or a bit of, you know, just adding in something that can make that person go, I'm not talking to a robot, I'm talking to a human being that actually is trying to do their job.

That ability to, to just be adaptable and to think on their feet and to just put in a bit of humor or to such a, you know, when you say, you know, people say to me, I wish I could do what you do.

Any tips that you've got on how to sort of think on your feet or react in certain situations that you've.

Used, I'm going to jump back to that.

Fight, flight or freeze.

Yeah.

The way to circumvent that is preparation.

So if you have a way that you're going to handle objections in particular, eventually you will not have that emotional reaction because it becomes just you're a part of the conversation.

So you're actually just taking away that emotional response completely.

Back to the emotional intelligence thing because I know what I'm going to say when you tell me you already have a vendor.

I already know what I'm going to say.

I'm expecting it now.

I've always thought the expect the unexpected is a little weird phrase because how can I expect the unexpected?

But if I can prepare and have a way that I do things, every time I hear an objection, I am going to, you know, you have your acknowledge.

Say the whole thing again.

Listen, acknowledge, identify, reply.

And I have.

Right, acknowledge.

Further on in the sales process.

Tell a story, ask a question.

In prospecting, acknowledge, ask a question.

You have this rhythm of how you do things.

You can do it no matter what the objection is.

If it's one you've never ever heard before, your acknowledgement can be I have to share with You.

No one has ever said that to me before.

And the question can be generic.

It doesn't have to be specific.

Right.

The question can be, what brought that up for you now?

And you can prep yourself to be ready for those things.

That's so true.

And look, before we sort of finish and think about.

Because we say we could talk for everyone, talk to me about tonality as well, because tonality is so important when you're in inside sales, right?

Because people can't see you and they can't meet you face to face and sort of see how I talk to people about tonality being.

So I would say sales is about what you say and how you say it.

But talk to me a bit more about, you know, the training you do and the advice you give to people around this exact sort of area.

So I actually have softening statements.

Again, I'm a super direct person.

I have a high sarcasm quotient, which makes me hateable and lovable, depending on who you are.

So I know that I need to soften my delivery.

So I actually have a list of softening statements that I will use.

And the key is they're softening statements linguistically, but they're also reminders to me to change my tone.

Okay.

So I will say out of curiosity.

And that's a key reminder to me that I need to ask the very direct question I'm about to ask in a softer tone of voice.

So it can't be an in your face delivery.

It needs to more.

You can ask a super direct question softly from a tone perspective and have people answer it.

Love that.

I love that.

I love the idea of softening statements and, you know, just having that.

In fact, there's two things I've written down here that I think, you know, I'm going to share with, you know, which has been really powerful.

You know, there's question strings to be able to literally link something else to the next thing, which is.

Which is a lot about mirroring and hearing what people are saying and then having some questions that you can sort of utilize alongside it.

But that, like you say, to soften or adjust your voice or adjust your tonality.

And again, that comes from listening, doesn't it?

Comes from that active listening.

Because if you're listening to someone saying something that's a little bit difficult or a bit challenging for them, you don't want to come across as a salesperson that sounds like you've not really given a.

You really cared.

You know, someone said, oh, you know, we've had a Real problem with the vendor.

Oh, well.

Well, that's okay.

Well, I'll carry on and talk about my stuff.

It makes you look, like, careless, you know, you know, person that doesn't care about them.

Whereas if you can, like you say, a softening statement, I'm sorry, sorry to hear that.

What went on, or I'm sorry, I'm sorry that you had that issue.

Tell me more.

What.

What happened.

You know, you're sounding empathetic and engaging, and that's going to build that trust and engagement with someone, even if it doesn't turn into business.

I think that when people will listen to my calls because I'll do training where I'm like, well, I'll call that person.

Right.

Let's call them.

I think that there's more silence on my calls than a lot of salespeople's calls.

And part of that is I'm really paying attention to what you're saying, so I'm not thinking about what I'm going to say next.

So there is going to be a pause where I'm thinking, and sometimes that pauses.

I'm waiting to see if you're done.

I learned some great stuff by not saying anything for three or four seconds after somebody stops talking.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

We were playing that game.

But you're right.

It's that element of those who talk first.

You're right.

In my experience, prospects have often answered their own question when they're asking something and then, you know, you know, can you do that at a cheaper price?

And then they.

Then they sort of make up.

Actually, no, it doesn't matter.

You know, they've made up their own mind.

They're just looking for it.

I certainly couldn't agree more.

So.

So look, we conscious of time today and we've talked for a lot of stuff, and it's incredibly, you know.

You know, you share very similar philosophy to.

To what I do around sales and building relationships and business and achieving things.

Any sort of final.

A couple of final tips from you as to if people are listening to this or watching this and are thinking, you know, that they want to get better at this.

You mentioned about practice and preparation, which is, I think so few salespeople do enough practice.

They don't.

They don't get comfortable with this sort of stuff.

But is there anything, you know, top two or three things you'd say to anyone that's maybe, you know, in business or, you know, not achieving what they want to right now to put in place, to try and you Know, become better at sort of engaging and engaging with new prospects.

So I'm going to say the first thing is, why do you want to do it?

Like, uncover your why behind whatever the thing is you're trying to work on.

Like, what are you going to get out of it?

If you're starting to think about putting some serious time, energy, and effort into being better at something, why?

What's your personal goal that's driving you to want to do that?

Because then you could remind yourself of that goal when it doesn't feel like it's working.

Right.

Like, I don't want to do it today, but I want that thing, so I'm going to do it today.

So that would be the starting point for me, is anytime I want to get better at something, I'm going to do that.

Is that, you know.

No.

Why?

For me.

Not for your boss, but for you.

And if you need a tip, ask yourself, what is that going to get me?

Write it down.

Then, what is that going to get me?

Then what is that going to get me?

And keep asking yourself that question, what is it going to get me?

Until you're annoyed with yourself for asking that question.

And that's probably your real answer.

Yeah.

Go back to the kids scenario, Right?

Yep.

And then the next thing is, don't set yourself up for failure.

So if you are making 50 calls a day, don't say you want to make 100, say you want to make one more.

Do that for a week.

Prove to yourself you can do 51.

Next week, do 52 next week, do 55.

Yeah.

Right.

Or, oh, I can never.

I never stick to a cadence.

Okay.

Don't try to stick to a cadence with all 30 of those prospects that you have identified.

Do five.

And once you prove to yourself that you can do a cadence for five, do five more.

Yeah.

By the end of six months, you've gotten through your 30 little wins, isn't it?

Little wins that you can do, like you say.

And a lot of times.

Right.

And that's a really good point.

I'll take from there.

You see, sometimes I think.

Yeah.

Moving in numbers of 10, or if you do 60, do 70.

Well, actually, why don't I do 61 or 62, actually?

Just.

Just be one better than yesterday.

If you're one better than yesterday every day.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The world's your oyster.

Yeah.

Look, I mean, it's been amazing talking to Linda.

Thank you.

You've shared a lot.

Yeah.

It's so refreshing for me to.

To talk to sales and experts and Business people that have got a similar sort of approach to me because there is a lot of people in our industry that are very macho.

I call it macho, if I'm honest.

I call it a lot of sort of, you know, you know, sales are going to be this ra.

You know, the muscles and stuff.

And actually I think sales isn't that.

I think sales is the things that we've talked about, about solving problems and been able to understand something from someone else's perspective and to be curious about them and to open up and be prepared and yeah, really, really interesting to, to hear your thoughts.

And so where can people, where's the best place for people to find you if they want to reach out and connect with you?

LinkedIn I guess is the good option.

So LinkedIn is always a great option.

You can also find me@upyourtelesales.com Fantastic.

And I've been on Lynn's site.

There's some great blogs and resources there to use as well.

And look, you know, for people that are doing this, you know, engaging in, in this sort of sales activity, like we said at the start, is so vital, right?

If you, if, you know, if you've got all the leads coming in, great.

But even then I always say to people, you know, do you know what, one day that Google search engine might optimization might change or that AdWords campaign change or another competitor might come into the market.

In fact, I was talking to a customer earlier on who was going through exactly that same thing.

We were getting lots of these results and then things decided to change.

And that's what happens in, in marketing text, where you've got to be on the front foot and to do stuff.

And that involves having conversations, picking up the phone, you know, reaching out in different channels and open up the door.

So, yeah, and I definitely agree with you, totally avoid that case of rejection.

Right.

The rejection isn't aimed at you personally, it's just the reality of where that person is at that moment in time.

It's been wonderful to talk to you, James.

Well, look, it's, it's been a huge pleasure and privilege.

I'll put a link into lyn's website and LinkedIn profile and so, but thank you for giving up your time.

I know you've had some, some interesting weather there in New York recently, so you maybe have not got the snow.

We've got the cold.

We don't get much of the snow and the cold.

So look, it's been an absolute privilege and pleasure to chat to you and to thank you for giving up your time and sharing your thoughts and ideas.

It's a, it's refreshing to hear and brilliant to hear.

And let's be all gained so much from today.

So thank you.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Have a great week.

Will do.

So there was Lynn, Heidi, who again was a fantastic, so many insights that she shared on some, some incredible things to, to think about when it comes to selling and to engaging and to to prospect in the right way and especially when you're engaging for the first time.

So we'll share Lynn's resources so you can get access to them.

But that's it for this week on the podcast.

Thank you so much for listening as ever.

It's great to have your ears and your, your eyes if you're watching online.

And as I always say, stay safe and I'll see you next week.

Take care.